The Primitive Podcast: Matt Bumstead
Posted by Buffy the Bison | March 19, 2021
Coming from a family with nearly a century in the supermarket business, Matt Bumstead had a front row seat into the inner workings of a large company.
But it was, and is, his keen eye for examining humility and its relationship to the Self that shaped him into the leader he is today.
Connect with the folks behind the episode: Matt Bumstead and Kade Wilcox
Kade Wilcox: Hey guys, Kade Wilcox here, host of The Primitive Podcast. Thanks for tuning in this week for Matt Bumstead. Matt Bumstead used to work at United. In fact, his family owned United for a very long time and had a long history of leadership there. Now, Matt is the dean of the business school at Lubbock Christian University. I really enjoyed having him on today's episode, where we talk about leadership. As always, thanks for joining the podcast.
Matt Bumstead: One of the things we do in my classes is we get the students to list on a board the worst behaviors they've seen out of people in leadership positions; they take all the credit, or they don't play by the same rules, or they're abusive, or whatever else. But we run through that and at the end, we say, "Look at what's on the board here. Tell me what's the common thread." And that is [when] they see it’s self, it's ego, it's about me. Once they see that, then we say, okay, if we can agree that this self before others is the root of the worst, we can't call them leadership behaviors because those aren't leadership behaviors, but behaviors by people in leadership roles. Then doesn't it stand to reason that the converse would be true and that the root of the best, most impactful, powerful leadership behaviors are going to stem from an attitude, or mindset, of others and mission before self?
Who is Matt Bumstead?
Kade Wilcox: Matt, thanks so much for joining The Primitive Podcast. I know you've got a lot going on. You're in the dead heat of another semester at LCU, so I'm excited for folks to hear from you. So for those who don't know Matt Bumstead, tell us a little bit about your background, your family, kind of the work you're doing now. All the good stuff.
Matt Bumstead: Well, my parents are both Texans, but I was born and raised in Nashville, Tennessee, and came to Texas in 1994. I went to Davidson College, did a little bit of seminary in Virginia, but felt led out here to come work for United Supermarkets, which was my family's business. My great-grandfather was the founder. I didn't have any clue what that was going to become. I thought I already knew the person I was going to marry. I thought when I saw Lubbock because I had grown up coming to Vernon – but I'd never been out here really – and when I saw it, I thought, okay, well, I'm not going to live here long. And really, you know, just like lots of young people, I was thinking, "Where's the cool city? How long do I have to live here before I can still work for United, but go live in a cool city?"
And of course, all these years later, I'm here and wouldn't live anywhere else. But you know, I went through 20 years at United. I started off in an 18-month training program working in every job in every department, pretty much. I ended up, you know, being an assistant manager, running the store, all that kind of stuff. And then was co-president for about nine years and on the board. And that was an incredible experience to work in that business, with those people, in that mission. So in 19, I'm sorry, in 2013, at the very end, we sold the business after 98 years.
Kade Wilcox: 98 years.
Matt Bumstead: Yeah. It's funny. I used to make speeches and say when we've introduced ourselves as the fourth generation, my brother and I would introduce ourselves and I'd say, "So I know what you're thinking. You're thinking this is the guy who's going to screw it up."
And of course, yeah. And people would laugh, but we always wanted not to be those people, of course. But really we didn't anticipate selling it. That wasn't the plan. And I really do believe it was God's plan and the way it unfolded was beautiful. But when that happened, you know, I was still, relatively speaking, somewhat young and didn't have any clue what was coming next. That was a great spiritual experience because I immediately launched, and a leadership experience, I immediately launched into trying to grab that and take hold of that and plan my way out of it. You know, your comfort zone is when you've been busy and you've been in a leadership role. You know, scheduling and finding things where you feel like you're contributing. And that was a great moment where God said to me, "You know, I've given you this opportunity. You think you might want to check in with me and see what you're going to do now?"
Kade Wilcox: How did you approach that? Man, that's really good. So, how did you approach that season? Like, how did you learn how to create space, to slow your mind down, to maybe eliminate busy-ness? Like, what was your approach to that? And what was that experience like?
Getting in Your Own Way
Matt Bumstead: You know, it really, it does start with that moment I was describing where, you know, I built spreadsheets and I had schedules going out weeks of all the things I was going to accomplish. And very quickly I started experiencing frustration at not getting the things on my list done. And, again, I know now looking back, it was a defense mechanism. It was that desire, that need, to feel like I was doing something worth doing, worth spending my time on. But when I stopped and stepped back and thought, you know, look, the world is full of opportunity. If there are people who need you, they'll find their way to you. In the meantime, keep yourself open, you know? Of course, move, don't just stand there. Do something that is going to feel like you are contributing, but remain as open as possible.
You know, I've been at LCU for five years now. Only a year, you know, full time. But that's not something I could have created for myself. That happened because I was open. I was available. I was, again, doing whatever work made sense in the meantime. But I got a note from them inviting me to be on the advisory council of the new school of business they'd created. And I just felt the leading to say, "That's an honor, and I would love to. And by the way, if you have anything else where I could maybe be involved with students, whether that's mentoring or even teaching something, I'd be interested." And that's how this happened. So I, you know, I do think again, that we, particularly people who are driven who, have that self-starter makeup, you know, when you're in a situation where maybe you do have some freedom, that you didn't expect to have, the temptation can be to control. Control, control, control. And certainly as a person of faith, but really also from a leadership perspective, that usually doesn't yield the kind of results; it's usually, unfortunately, unproductive behavior.
So, and as a parent (we were talking about parenting earlier) it's the same thing, of course. But yeah, I just, I have learned that when in doubt, and again, I'm going to keep coming back to faith, let God write the schedule. And what I found out of that was that at the end of each day, after that, I started the day with a schedule. I heard God say, I gave you the gift of planning. I gave you, I made you the way you are, and that's a good way. But keep yourself open to nuances I might add on any given day. So I would still start the day thinking I knew what I was going to do, but there would be days where I would have accomplished none of it, not one thing, because of a phone call I got. Someone asking if I could come have lunch with them, or who knows what else, but I would go to bed feeling so content. It changed the way I would go to bed because I wouldn't think, "I didn't get anything done on my list. And it was a failure. I've just... what today was, was a train wreck." I would go to bed thinking, "Wow, that was a great day. And I never could have made that schedule on my own."
The Art of Saying “No”
Kade Wilcox: Did you find yourself, like, as practically as you're willing to share, like a decision-maker? Because I would imagine after leading an organization as high profile as United is in this community, that the moment you weren't doing that you had opportunities kind of flying at you from different angles. So did you decide very early on you were going to kind of create almost a matrix, or a grid, in terms of how you were going to vet opportunities that came your way? Or how'd you handle that personally?
Matt Bumstead: Just know that when I hear that sort of thinking, I'm always in awe of people (and you may be one that God made that way) who have that set of gifts and those inclinations. Because no, I am definitely much more of an informal, flexible, moment-to-moment decision-maker. And again, I try to, you know, the older I get, the more I try to yield as much as possible to whatever God might be nudging or leading in a moment. But, you know, I learned early on, I mean to address more, I think the point of the question, I had humbling experiences early on when I started taking on a higher level leadership role at United that was more public. I don't know. I had a really humbling experience of over-committing where I had said yes to pretty much everything anyone came and asked me to do.
"Will you be on this board?" "Yes. What an honor." “Will you serve in this capacity? Will you take on this role? Will you chair this?" And it was always, "Yes." And, and I think in many ways, of course, that came from a good place. But I think it also feels good to be asked. I'm as human as the next person, and I've, you know if I'm not paying attention, I've got an ego that would love to grab a hold of everything. And so I think you say yes, thinking, wow, it feels great these people are noticing me and they chose me. And, of course, I'm going to sit on that board and I've heard of this board and I want to be on that board. But what happened was I looked up and I was doing a very poor job of serving in some of these roles.
And, in at least one case, I had not gone to a meeting, and I'd probably been on this board a year. I'm sad, honestly, even now, that it took me a year to really be convicted by that. But at one point I was, we were reading a book in a group Bible study I was doing, and it talked about one guy saying to the other guy how busy he was. And the first guy said, "Well, why do you choose to be so busy?" And I thought, you know, this is a choice. And I've said yes to these things. And now I've clearly said yes to so many that I had no business saying yes to. And I had to go back and resign and apologize. And so the point is that I learned from that, that I didn't want to do that again.
And so I can be pretty good at saying no. That doesn't mean I don't push myself too far, sometimes I don't stretch myself too thin. But what I've learned is it's everyone else's role to come and ask you to help, to come and ask you to serve. And as long as they have a mission worth serving, there should be a part of you that wants to join in. I mean, I hope that's always a leader's heart is to say, yeah, I want to help serve you in this good work you're doing. It's their job to come to ask me because they're trying to move their mission forward. It is no one else's responsibility, but mine, to know whether or not I can say yes or no to that. And if I'm saying yes, when I have no business saying yes, then I'm really hurting everybody. I'm hurting the people I've said yes to, but goodness, if I've got a family, the people I'm working with as a team, I'm asking them all to sacrifice, and I'm not going to be at an optimal level in anything.
Kade Wilcox: What a great perspective. I've never really thought about not just how it impacts your ability to add value and to do good work, but the implications it's having on all those who are already relying on you for good leadership. So tell me how you see your role as a leader. This can come from your experience, you know, at United leading as an executive, or, your years of research as a leader. It can come from whatever, wherever you want. But when you think of leadership and your role as a leader, what do you think is your responsibility?
Looking Beyond Servant Leadership
Matt Bumstead: I'll frame it this way. And clearly, this is a leadership podcast, but we could do this for days and days. And I mean, this is just one of the most wonderful topics there is, or you wouldn't be doing this in the first place, right?
Kade Wilcox: I agree!
Matt Bumstead: Well, you know, we can move on past the label of servant leadership. Not because it now is so common that people might even roll their eyes and think it's cliche. That's too bad because clearly, it's an all-important concept. I would say that the true understanding of the nature of leadership is service. But I'm sure you've had plenty of people unpack that. So I'll say that what really has made an impression on me in terms of shaping my understanding of what it looks like to be or have a shot at being the best leader I can be, is the concept of humility. As much as possible, the biblical concept of humility. And not, obviously, most people when they think about and when they hear that word, they think it means if I say, you know, "Kade, you're really smart," that you're obligated to say, "No, I'm not smart. I'm stupid." You know? "No, I'm not smart. They're all smart. And I'm just a big dummy." And that's not humility. And even if that were, that would still, most of the time be false humility. It would be something where really we're still stroking our ego by trying to say the thing that sounds great.
You know, so humility, and I'm sure y'all have talked about it in other episodes of the podcast. But you know, some simple definitions: CS Lewis said it's not thinking less of yourself. It's thinking of yourself less. A guy named John Dickson who wrote a book, Humilitas, that is really important to me (and I use it in my faith and business course at LCU. It's a senior-level course.) talked about how it's forgoing the use of power and authority for your own benefit in favor of using it for others. And that lines up really well with Philippians 2, you know, in humility, consider others better or more valuable than yourself looking to their interests and not to your own. And then, of course, it uses Jesus as an example, which brings us back to service.
He came not to be served, but to serve. So humility, while it's not something, you know, the moment you think you have it, you don't. It's something I want to pursue. I want to be, the Bible says, be clothed in it. And so I'm trying to seek every day a heart that is operating from that place. And the easiest way that I've been able to understand it is, it's others before self. That is one of the things we do in my classes, we get the students to list on a board the worst behaviors they've seen out of people in leadership positions. And if they've had them as coaches or a boss or whatever, what were the things that really just drove you crazy. And they'll list them all up, and you know what a lot of those would be. Most of us know what they would be. Whether it's they take all the credit, or they don't play by the same rules, or they're abusive, or whatever else.
But we run through that. And at the end, we say, look at what's on the board here. Tell me what's the common thread. And it takes them a moment, but they always get it. And that is, they see it's self. It's ego. It's about me. I don't play by the rules because I don't want to. I let myself be a procrastinator, or I let myself be incompetent at certain parts of the role, or I abuse other people because it's about me. So once they see that, then we say, okay, if we can agree that this self before others is the root of the worst, (and you can't call them leadership behaviors, because those aren't leadership behaviors) behaviors by people in leadership roles, then doesn't it stand to reason that the converse would be true and that the root of the best, most impactful, powerful leadership behaviors are going to stem from an attitude or mindset of others and mission before self? And again, ultimate humility, biblically, is God before me. He's God and I'm not. But he said, you know, love God and love others.
Growing in Humility
Kade Wilcox: That’s good. What would your counsel be to a leader listening to this podcast, if they struggle with others before self? And not always in a negative sense, but you know, your aspirations are more important than others. Your income potential is more important than others. I mean they could be in and of themselves not necessarily bad things, but things that get in the way of others before self. Like, what would your advice be to that leader in terms of even processing that, and then moving practically in the direction of growing in humility?
Matt Bumstead: You know, I think I would say probably two things. One is to remember that you can't do this, your heart can't be soft before this concept if you don't genuinely look at other people around you and care about them and genuinely want what's best for them. And not what you think is best, but what is best. You want them to be happy. You want them to have a great life story. Whether that's someone you've known your whole life, or that's someone you are seeing in the drive-through. That you look at other people and you have a heart that wants good for them. And if you're not there yet, then I would probably say to that leader, let's talk about that. Let's see what it would look like to get there because that will unlock a lot of other things.
Beyond that, I would say that, and I mean, this is axiomatic, and yet it still doesn't become real for you usually until you experience it, that our lives are only gonna end up being meaningful in so much as we have made a positive impact on the lives of others. And we know this in several ways, apart from watching It's a Wonderful Life, which is one of my two favorite movies. The other is Indiana Jones. Those are two pretty different heroes, but I love them both. We know this in one way because we can look at the people that society says are the most successful, the richest, the most famous, whether they are politicians, professional athletes, whatever. And most of the time, if you look at them you really pay attention. And I don't mean to say this in a judgmental way.
Just being objective and observing. Oftentimes they don't seem very happy. And their lives look like they're not going the way we really actually would like our own lives to go. Many times, some of the most powerful and wealthiest people seem to be the most insecure people on the planet. Now, if those things are really going to make the difference, again, reaching a certain income level, reaching a certain level of influence and power, if those things are gonna make the difference, well, then why would those people still be so doggone insecure? So there's something there that we should notice. Beyond that I think we all know, when the Bible talks about, and Jesus talks about, how it's better to give than to receive, if we're made in God's image then it makes sense that deep down, you know, what's imprinted on our hearts is going to resonate with His.
And I was way too old the first time I really realized, at Christmas time, how true that was. I was basically an adult at this point. I wasn't a kid when I realized it was better to give than to receive. But I remember because at Christmas I'd always been excited about what I was getting under the tree. I was looking at the packages. I was guessing and figuring out and already thinking about what I was going to do with my presents. And one year I got a gift for my dad. I worked on it and we were going to get to go see Michael Jordan and the Bulls play the Rockets when they were loaded. And we were going to do it with his college teammate and roommate. He played at SMU. And I'd worked all this up and he had no clue. And the way I presented it to him was I did a collage and he had to look at it and kind of figure it out.
And I remember all night that that's all I could think about, what I was giving him. I was so excited that I literally had not even thought about getting anything. And I thought, "Oh, it's better to give than to receive." That's a long illustration, just to say that when you have experienced pouring yourself out for others, pouring yourself out to empty, to serve and make a difference in others, and that you have desired their success more than your own, and you've reached a place where you only see your success through their success, That you cannot be successful if the people on your team, the people you're leading if they're not successful, once you've tasted that and had the experience of seeing those people who are counting on you, looking at you, vulnerable before you, and trust you, when you've seen them succeed under your leadership, in your care, I don't think you, I don't think you ever want to go back.
Kade Wilcox: Yeah. That's really powerful.
Matt Bumstead: It's too rich.
Kade Wilcox: Yeah. No, it's so encouraging. I mean, to hear you say that this whole time you've been talking about it, I find it sometimes challenging that, you know, you're aiming for something, you're trying to accomplish something, and you get so kind of, enmeshed in that. You get so, kind of, caught up in that effort to accomplish whatever, that it's really easy to lose sight of is this thing that I'm even doing or aspiring to, you know, good for others? Or how have you become so obsessed with accomplishing it that now it's single-handedly about yourself? And so it's really challenging. I find it challenging to balance both extreme aspiration and extreme sacrificial-ness. Like those things can be really, really challenging. So everything you're saying is resonating, and I feel really, really good.
Taking Care of Yourself
Matt Bumstead: That's a great point. And while I don't know how many of this sort of person might be tuning into a leadership podcast, let me say that I need to qualify it with the point, as you made, that there are people who are oriented in such a way that they almost cannot give to themselves. They cannot take care of themselves because they feel, and I'm not saying it's necessarily that it's healthy. And we all have our issues where we're not healthy, where we need to grow. But I think I would say that it's probably an unhealthy level. But we all know people, you know? My wife has tendencies toward this. She is so sacrificial that she will run herself into the ground at the expense of others. And the problem is that there are plenty of people out there who will take advantage of that.
You know, Jesus, as we think of as the great servant, if we study his life and story, we notice that he did stop and eat. He did sleep. He took time to go pray. He took time to be with his people. And there's even a story as you know, where the crowd is there and he gets in the boat and just rows away from them. He didn't heal every single person. He didn't fix every single human, temporal problem. And that was the Son of God. So, you know, yes, that's a great point. We know that there are people who are going to be all about aspiration and, let's say, about ambition. Because at that point it can, that's where it can kind of go to a little darker side. But there are also people who cannot. They're such pleasers. They have learned that their only level of self-worth is in making others happy. And that is dangerous, that can be a self-destructive place.
Kade Wilcox: That's really good. That's really good. How do you treat failure, like in your leadership journey? How have you approached failure and learning from it? And I mean, is there a process that you apply when you're experiencing failure? Just speak into that.
Admitting Mistakes and its Domino Effect
Matt Bumstead: I got good at this from working in a grocery store. Because as I told you, I did 18 months of working in every job. So literally every day or two, I was trying a different job. And, you know, you and I are cut from the same cloth, I'm sure, in plenty of ways. I mean, I'm someone who likes to achieve. I want to be good at what I do, and I'll push, push, push to try to reach a level of excellence if I can. So every day, or every few days, being in a new job and literally being the worst person in the store at that. And I have my college degree and at 23, I was still kind of fit. And, you know, you'd think you're kind of, you can do lots of stuff. And I'd be standing next to a 65-year-old woman who, you know, was not necessarily exercising a lot and maybe hadn't even finished high school.
And she could crush me in that job, you know? To the point that she's calling other people over to watch me do it. So I got used to failing. I got used to recognizing that, yes, there are some things I'm really good at, and I need to try to maximize those. But I'm going to, not only is there a lot I'm not good at, but I'm going to make a ton of mistakes. When the number of mistakes that can be made on a day in a grocery store, with all those humans, and all those tasks, is off the charts. And when you're the manager and you are the one responsible, that's a lot of opportunity for apologizing and for trying to make things right. So I really learned to get comfortable with failure and not to let it upset me. It doesn't mean it's fun, but to learn how to admit mistakes and weaknesses and recognize that not only is there nothing wrong with that, [but] if anyone's pretending that they don't have just as many mistakes and weaknesses to deal with, then bless them. Bless their little hearts.
I mean, you know, that's a tough place to live. And so the more, I've just found that the more I can be right upfront about the fact that I'm going to make plenty of mistakes on a daily basis, and there's a lot I'm not good at, that's so freeing. And incidentally from a leadership perspective, one of the things that I've found, which makes sense if you think about it, is that when you approach, if, as the leader, when you approach your team that way and A) you let them know up front that you know you're gonna make mistakes and you want to apologize; you want to claim them before anyone else has the chance to point them out. But if you miss it, that you want them to tell you and you'll do your best to apologize well, but that you model it, that you do jump out there and show them, you claim the mistakes.
You claimed the mess-ups. And you say, “I am so sorry,” and you do what you can to make it right. That is so freeing to the team. Suddenly they believe, "Hey, it's actually okay here." They're not saying it's okay to make mistakes. It is. You know as well as I do that one of the worst things that can happen on a team is to have a low level of trust because everyone is going to make mistakes. So that when they do, they're not upfront about them. So what do they do? They hide them or they deflect the blame. They try to cover them up. This leads to, you know, illegal activity at the worst. But it's so unproductive for the team, as opposed to everyone just being open and honest. There's probably a mistake a day on anything. And, you know, hey, okay, let's jump into that. That's a miss. Yeah. What do we do with that? But we're not beating each other up. And you know the cliche is, that's how you get better. If you're not making mistakes, you're not getting better. I mean, that's true.
Reading as a Non-negotiable for Leaders
Kade Wilcox: That's good. How do you invest in your own personal growth? As a leader, how do you stay inspired? Like what's your approach?
Matt Bumstead: Yeah. I heard Bill Hybels. I used to go to his conferences every year until it got too hard to go to them in person. And I just watched him on the Willow Creek Association. He would say every year, "Every leader is a reader." And that would just pierce my heart because I'm not one who wants to reach for the next good-for-me book. I mean, I don't mind reaching for some good fiction as often as possible, but every time I'm reading a good-for-me book, you know, not including Scripture, I'm making myself do it. And I thought, wow, well, I, you know, I was kind of trying to be, you know, serve as a good leader. But maybe I can't be. But I realized that yes, A) I have read some books and B) that's not really the point.
It is, what you're saying, what you're getting at, what he's saying is, every leader takes that responsibility seriously. That when you're a leader, it's not a privilege that you say, "Woo! I've arrived. Now, I get the sweet office and I get the better benefits package. And now everybody's got to come to me and laugh at my jokes." That it is, if anything, should be seen as a greater responsibility, again, greater service, greater sacrifice. And that someone who actually wants to take that seriously is submitting him or herself to that role. Which literally means putting yourself under it. You're putting yourself under others and the mission of the organization, and you're going to do what it takes to do it well. Which means that you're going to constantly be trying to get better.
So, you know, do I listen to a podcast? Yes. Do I watch videos? Yes. Do I go to a conference? Yes. Do I read a book now and then? Yes. I love to just watch and observe and ask questions. And of course, what you're doing here is an incredible exercise in this. I would occasionally take a leader I respected to lunch and say, “If you'll talk with your mouth full, I'm going to ask you a lot of questions. And I'm buying lunch, and I'm going to take notes while you talk. But I just want to, I feel like you seem to really do leadership well, and I want to learn more about what you're thinking.” But I do think the last thing I'd say to your question is it's really, it's just the attitude that you're talking about of not thinking I've got it down. Not believing I'm there.
And not believing others are fortunate to have me. That while I'm not going to beat myself up every day, I'm going to be grateful for how, for the things that did go well that day. And I'm going to be generous with myself and say, I know I tried my hardest. I'm going to look at each day and think that, you know, there are things I can do better. And I want to. And again, I want to do them for others. Yeah, it'll feel good to me, but I'm not doing it for me. I'm doing it because these other people around me are counting on me to give them the best I've got. And I think I can give a little more. And so I think when you have that, that attitude, again, it's not, it's not that you don't have grace for yourself, and it's not that you're never satisfied. No, I think hopefully you're satisfied every day because you did give your best. But that you're constantly saying I'm not through until I'm taken off the board. I'm not through seeing if I can keep doing this better.
Avoiding Cringeworthy Moments
Kade Wilcox: Thanks for sharing that. That's good. My favorite question to ask is this last one, and that is if you could speak to your younger self, if you go back 15, 20 years, you talk about your early days of leading at United, like if you could go back to that time and speak to your younger self, based on everything you know now, what would your piece of advice be?
Matt Bumstead: Okay, well, so I use this framework often to make a point to people. So it may be that there are other things that I would say, but I will tell you what I often say to people. And that is, I say, if I could talk to my 10 years younger self, I would tell that person, "Listen more and talk less. I know you think that you know a lot of stuff, and you know some stuff, but those things you're thinking about saying? Just hold back and listen, and restrain yourself and take in." It's that, it's that humility mentality, I think. But I've done that at every age. I mean, I know that my – let's see, I'm 49 – that my 39-year-old self, I would say that, too. But my 39-year-old self could say that, and would, to the 29.
So, I mean, it would definitely be that because when I think about the things that make me cringe, it's usually when I was talking. And usually when I was speaking and telling people what I knew. Those are the most cringe-worthy moments probably of my life in general. So, you know, it would be that. And then I'm sure it would also not place limits on what God can do. And remember that in all of the urgency of the work you're doing and the things on your to-do list, that really, as a person of faith, it's good to stop and step back. And remember actually all that this is about is Him. And I am here to be in a relationship with Him every day. And that goes back to that bit about letting Him write the schedule and not letting my blood pressure get up over what I think is on my list or what I think the proper outcome should be. And just taking my best swing over and over, giving the best I can. But gosh, there's a whole lot to enjoy and a whole lot to be grateful for. And don't, we don't want to miss that by constantly being like...we had a Whippet for 15 years. You know, racing dogs? And to be a Greyhound or a Whippet on the track, chasing that rabbit, and you don't have any awareness of anything else. That is how you miss a heck of a wonderful gift that God gives us in this life.
Kade Wilcox: Thanks for all your time. I'm going to have to say, I would have never pegged you as a guy that owned a racing dog.
Matt Bumstead: Well, she didn't race. We didn't race her but man she was athletic. She probably wished we would.
Kade Wilcox: Thanks for that clarity.
Matt Bumstead: You pegged me. She was just fun.
Kade Wilcox: Well, thanks for all your time. Really appreciate all the value brought today and for your time.
Matt Bumstead:Thanks!
